Conversation with a Communist

evandonghue2 (1 week ago) Spam If socialism is so great, then why do people need to be herded at gunpoint to fulfill its ends>? A just society cannot be built on stealing from it's most productive members_ Is in not hypocritical to accuse the "capitalist" of crimes such as theft, when a socialist regime would do the same>? And whats to stop the "capitalist" from taking control of the monopoly of power a socialist state creates>? Could it be possible that people the proletariat claims to oppose, like bankers, would support a socialist agenda to hoist debt upon a nation, destroying it from within>? Your ideas are hurting the proletariat, because your ideas are outdated allowing them to be manipulated by the ruling class, turing people, that otherwise would seek common cause, against each other_ Whether the bolsheviks were jews or not means nothing, the real question is, who were their bankers>? unifieddynasty (5 days ago) Spam "If socialism is so great, then why do people need to be herded at gunpoint to fulfill its ends>? " Because one final force is necessary to reverse the millenia of herding people at gunpoint, swordpoint, spearpoint, and penpoint. "A just society cannot be built on stealing from it's most productive members" Then there has never been a just society in the history of humankind. I take that the most productive members of society are the members who actually contribute to the capital, and do not merely own it. unifieddynasty (5 days ago) Spam "crimes of theft... when a socialist regime would do the same>? " When someone steals your house, and you kick that person out, are you committing theft yourself? "And whats to stop the "capitalist" from taking control of the monopoly of power a socialist state creates>?" With great power, comes great responsibility. The Soviet Union misused said power, focusing on military might instead of civic needs. Ideally, or close to ideally, exploitation would be virtually removed. As a direct result, there will be a balance of wealth, redistributed so that tens of millions do not starve each and every day. "socialist agenda to hoist debt upon a nation, destroying it from within>? " When there is the same amount of capita, yet that capita is redistributed in a more logical and humanitarian fashion, does that incur more debt? Is debt spontaneous? Would debt and inflation not be utterly vanquished, when the poor are no longer indebted out of pure survival? unifieddynasty (5 days ago) Spam "Your ideas are hurting the proletariat" Perhaps. But it helps to even the scales from such buffoons like Glenn Beck and his ultra-Republicans. :) "the real question is, who were their bankers>?" Ah! You caught me! The Bolshevists were funded by Freemasons like Delano Roosevelt and Adolf Hitler! Everyone panic! ;) evandonghue2 (1 day ago) Spam "Because one final force is necessary..." Sounds like countless statist before, that tell people to give up ethical behavior and give in to the urge to use violence to achieve a better world_ But violence only creates the negative reaction of more violence_ "Then there has never been a just society in the history of humankind. " Agreed, although some counties do justice better than others_ "When someone steals your house, and you kick that person out, are you committing theft yourself?" No. And I fail to see the comparison_ "With great power, comes great responsibility." This is our key difference_ You believe a lie, the lie is that, "If we can simply elect or impose a group of genius rulers the world will be better". I believe no one should have the right to impose anything and that only voluntary exchanges between people are ethical_ It is the hight of arrogance to believe that you know what is right for someone else, let alone what is right for millions of people_ evandonghue2 (1 day ago) Spam "yet that capita is redistributed in a more logical and humanitarian fashion, does that incur more debt?" Yes. I hate to sound condescending, but, if you wish to impose a central planned state to achieve "logic" or humanitarianism, you should know the history of these planned economies and honestly look at why they always fail_ evandonghue2 (1 day ago) Spam The state creates no wealth, it has to either tax or borrow to achieve it's ends_ Since they need docile people to continue to support the system, the state is more inclined to borrow_ The drive to have something for nothing is enticing in the short term for both the political class and the parasite class_ It's a perfect storm_ The added money in the system creates higher prices, while the central planned economists push for price controls, which only creates a lucrative black market_ Now the state criminalizes buying staples like food_ End result, police state_ This is the lesson of 20th century central planned economies, this is why your ideas fail, and this is why the proletariat, that i believe you honestly want to help, are instead hurt by the ideology you share with marx/mao/lenin_ evandonghue2 (1 day ago) Spam "But it helps to even the scales from such buffoons like Glenn Beck and his ultra-Republicans. :)." This "two wrongs makes a right" attitude is ethically retarded, yet it is a theme that you continue to profess_ Countering buffoonery with buffoonery is... well... buffoonery_ unifieddynasty (1 day ago) Spam "No. And I fail to see the comparison" Benign ignorance on your part. At least try to open your eyes to current events. " I believe no one should have the right to impose anything and that only voluntary exchanges between people are ethical" Great! We are on the same side. Now tell that to the monopolistic corporations who make a business out of exploiting two billion poor people every single day. unifieddynasty (1 day ago) Spam "It is the hight of arrogance to believe that you know what is right for someone else, let alone what is right for millions of people_ " If you believe this defines socialism and leftist thought, you are truly arrogant. Here's a thought for you; utopian communism is stateless. But as soon as there is no state, there is no protection. And as humans are generally violent and naturally survivalist, no protection equals absolutely no stability. But if you seriously try to label communists as de facto world dictators, you should really try to lose some of those stereotypes. unifieddynasty (1 day ago) Spam "Sounds like countless statist before, that tell people to give up ethical behavior and give in to the urge to use violence to achieve a better world" There would be no democratic Europe, had France not rebelled (though extremely bloody as it was). Please, if you enjoy living under serfdom, try living in Saudi Arabia. I'm sure the Saudi Arabian royal family would love to enslave you. "But violence only creates the negative reaction of more violence_" Then pray tell, have you a better solution to three quarters of the world's plight? unifieddynasty (1 day ago) Spam "Yes. I hate to sound condescending, but, if you wish to impose a central planned state to achieve "logic" or humanitarianism, you should know the history of these planned economies and honestly look at why they always fail_" Indeed they did. But rest assured, the means to produce utopian prosperity for all was never out of reach. However, Russian policy dictated bullets before bread, to keep on par with the vastly superior American production (vastly superior by default). And as factories were pumping out Type Eighties and Kalashnikovs, the factories could not pump out cars, farming tools, and human neccessities at an equal level. And that, is exactly why the planned economy had failed. It was never meant to sustain a 50 year wartime. unifieddynasty (1 day ago) Spam "The state creates no wealth, it has to either tax or borrow to achieve it's ends" Precisely. All states use taxation to improve public works. That is, unless that tax is being handled by corrupt conglomerates or dictators. "Since they need docile people to continue to support the system, the state is more inclined to borrow" I fail to see a connection between docile citizens and state loans. "The drive to have something for nothing is enticing in the short term for both the political class and the parasite class" Wealth is never spontaneous. Wealth must be generated by the people, in order to improve their lives. The only differentiation from capitalism is the fact that said wealth is clean. It is not mired with vast sums of personal fortune at the expense of all of one's peers. unifieddynasty (1 day ago) Spam "The added money in the system creates higher prices, while the central planned economists push for price controls, which only creates a lucrative black market" A true problem, but tis a problem that exists in every system. While the central planned economy controls prices, so too do the corporate moguls that plague any 'free' market. And so too, come the black markets. Correct me if I am wrong, but are not countless people making lump sums through the narcotics, weapons, and sex trades? Even at the height of Soviet Russian planned economy, the vast majority of such inedecent markets were aimed towards the United States. And let's not even mention illegal immigrant passports and internal corruption. Such things are not limited to a planned economy. unifieddynasty (1 day ago) Spam "Now the state criminalizes buying staples like food_ End result, police state" Note the 'buying' keyword. Please refer to my previous comment, on how the Soviet Union could have easily eased the bread lines and car production wait times. Funny, how the Soviets were never short on ammunition and tanks. Then there is your 'police state'. Perhaps you were referring to 'the Patriot Act'. Or how about the manipulation of the entire first world through the extremely sensitive media? Or how about the thousands of intelligence operatives in every 'democratic and free' country? The KGB weren't the only paramilitary force. evandonghue2 Spam "Benign ignorance on your part. At least try to open your eyes to current events." Then enlighten me, explain your comparison_ "Now tell that to the monopolistic corporations." It is the economic control of the system that creates monopolies_ Corporations have bought the state and now use it against the people for their own interests_ What I purpose is abolishing the state who has the monopoly on the use of force_ Without this monopoly, corporations would no longer be able to prevent competition_ A peaceful way of unraveling corporate monopoly simply by allowing others to enter the market place, injecting new ideas, but most importantly without force_ unifieddynasty (1 day ago) Spam "i believe you honestly want to help, are instead hurt by the ideology you share with marx/mao/lenin_ " It's alright. I have my opinions, and you have yours. :) The real challenge is to convert everyone else to your opinion, instead of branding them as heretics. "This "two wrongs makes a right" attitude is ethically retarded" So I take you are not a follower of Glenn Beck? Good riddance. But please, note sarcasm when you see it. evandonghue2 (1 day ago) Spam "Perhaps you were referring to 'the Patriot Act'. Or how about the manipulation of the entire first world through the extremely sensitive media? Or how about the thousands of intelligence operatives in every 'democratic and free' country? The KGB weren't the only paramilitary force." As some one who promotes a stateless society I see the USSR and the USA in the same light, basically central planners that have a monopoly on the use of force and the creation of currency, that always consume more and more power till they colapse_ evandonghue2 (1 day ago) Spam "I fail to see a connection between docile citizens and state loans." As Hayek explains, the loans create the boom, think fannie mae/freddie mac_ The new money causes prices to rise, think housing prices from the 90's till '05/'06_ But eventually the bust happens, think about right now_ All created by federal reserve loans_ The point is, in the short term, the boom makes everyone think presidents are heros and central bankers are geniuses, so the temptation to pour on the cash is massive, end result hyper inflation_ Of course this entire process takes decades, but like keynes said, "In the long run we are all dead". Greenspan must have lived 10 years to long_ unifieddynasty (10 hours ago) Spam "What I purpose is abolishing the state who has the monopoly on the use of force" Agreed. The real hard part is completing such a utopian feat. " peaceful way of unraveling corporate monopoly simply by allowing others to enter the market place, injecting new ideas, but most importantly without force_ " Once again, great in ideal. Too bad corporations are already too powerful. Just a single Walmart chain store can eradicate an entire town of localized merchants. And Walmart can continue to do this without any threat of political backlash. In fact it's promoted. As soon as a corporation gains a sponsorship, they are bellowing out to the whole world how powerful they are. Most major and historical landmarks these days are also 'owned' by corporations. And let's not even mention major world gatherings like the Olympics. I just don't see it realistic to completely eradicate such an omnipresent monopoly. evandonghue2 (10 hours ago) Spam The point is that what you described in the last comment is not free market its corporatism, which would not be possible without the violence of the state_ unifieddynasty Spam "As Hayek explains, the loans create the boom" I see. But in a communist's point of view, currency is irrelevant. And rightly so. Such a tool is the invoker of the vilest of corrupted deeds. And, let's not forget that there is no such thing as a short term loan in communism. Perhaps I am misinterpreting your original statement, but you seem to believe that communist centralization is mandated through massive loans. unifieddynasty Spam "Then enlighten me, explain your comparison_" Tell me, why are revolutions instigated? evandonghue2 (24 minutes ago) Spam "Such a tool is the invoker of the vilest of corrupted deeds." Money, has been among the most important tools for furthering human development_ Imagine a world where there is no federal reserve or central bankers, and in this world some people decide to trade goods they made, grew, or constructed with a currency of there choosing_ Would you promote using the power of the state to stop their voluntary action>? Remember, I don't support the monetary system at all_ But I also would not like any system that would prevent free market currencies, backed by gold or silver, from filling the void left in the absence of a central banker_ I don't think anyone will ever be successful trying to convince the world not to use money for trade_ The question is, are you going to use violence to stop them>? \evandonghue2 "Tell me, why are revolutions instigated?" Depends, many revolutions are merely political theater conducted by a far away empire, usually exploiting a country with ethnic tensions, economic inequality, brutal police, and corruption_ From my research very few revolts are organic movements_ India and south africa are the exception, in that they worked... and that they were ground up movements_ These revolutions legitimacy did not come from ideology, but rather from the commitment to non violence_